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The Tax-Avoidance Tango

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Author Topic: The Tax-Avoidance Tango
El DiabloPosted: 10/31/2008 12:01:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

IRS wrongly paid out $1 billion in 2007 refunds
Agency says it doesnít have resources to deal with all fraud cases


Seriously, maybe it''s time to come up with a more fairer and equitable way to raise the needed revenue to run this country. It''s obvious that not only is the system flawed and broke in many places, but that the population is sick and tired of feeling that they''re constantly getting screwed over by it.


BaRbArIaNPosted: 10/31/2008 8:27:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Short of no income tax at all (they''d only have to cut expenditures and waste to 60% or so of the current budget to get by on the other income sources they use), maybe a flat tax with a cutoff level of say 25k would work (i.e. you pay some number like 17% of all income over 25k). Hopefully it would lead to less regulation and bureacracy.


RichardCraniumPosted: 10/31/2008 9:54:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

So, you feel it is proper to tax people who make more money than others?


RoadrunnerPosted: 10/31/2008 10:01:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Quote:
So, you feel it is proper to tax people who make more money than others?




You are such a socialist. That would be like if you went to a restaurant and payed by how much and what you ate. IOW Ė the guy who has a small burger and a coke paying less than the guy who has a 4 course steak dinner with wine.

Fucking Marxist!



RichardCraniumPosted: 10/31/2008 10:53:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

I know, I''m a real asshole that way.


SpankyJakePosted: 10/31/2008 8:43:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer


Quote:
Short of no income tax at all (they''''d only have to cut expenditures and waste to 60% or so of the current budget to get by ...


You willing to give up your precious missile shield? I'm guessing no, because that fits your insanity. However you would happily kill off the FDA, NIH, NRC, OSHA, and every other agency that protects you from being poisoned, infected, irradiated, or otherwise boned over by the intrinsic nature of human greed. These agencies came into existence over time because the free market demonstrated that it could not and would not regulate itself.

You have never specified the reason that a "true" free market would be immune to the lessons of history. Instead you just regurgitate the term "crony capitalism," as if your ideal free trade, tribal / regionalistic, racism tolerant, every man for himself non-government hasn't been tried.

RichardCraniumPosted: 11/1/2008 12:46:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Look, here''s a test:

I own a business.

BaRb''s mom works for me. She can''t find work elsewhere because the (unregulated) economy sucks. So I can do pretty much whatever I want.

I make her scrub the floors with a toothbrush while wearing a very revealing nurses outfit.

If she quits, she could get evicted. If she stays, I could realize I can make her do anything.

GO DE-REGULATION!


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/1/2008 5:58:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

True example, from my perspective. Someone please tell me it isnít correct.

I have been to a free market economy country. What a paradise! Absolutely a dream come true. Nobody pays squat in taxes.

Where to start. Okay, the roads. There arenít near enough roads. Traffic is impossible at any time of the day, even 3 am. To go even a few short miles is nerve racking. It is so bad that hawkers stand in the roads selling snacks to people who are just plain stuck there. Talk about a small business. Some people drag a cripple around with them with some awful disability and bring them up to your window thinking you will hand them some cash for having the most terrible looking person that day. When they see you arenít the standard poor, they refuse to leave.

Restaurants, banks, jewelry type stores or anything that applies have to pay some bozo to stand outside at the door with a mock uniform and a shotgun. This is supposed to be security intended to make a potential customer feel comfortable enough to go inside and put down some cash for the product. Itís not like anyone who comes out wonít be attacked getting in their car after displaying that they might have something to rob.

Not very many police whatsoever. There just isnít tax revenue for that kind of shit. Robberies are very common, even of the multitudes of poor. Anybody is a target under the philosophy that quantity will suffice over a few big scores.

The rich who live in gated estates, with the same putz guards, have their way of life the same as everybody else. They are paranoid and the kids growing up experience not much at all. The kids would be target for kidnapping so they exist in the same cage that the adults live their lives in.



RoadrunnerPosted: 11/1/2008 5:59:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Any ďbig businessĒ is a big joke. They donít pay a real wage so have to put up with people who donít give a shit about the quality of work they do. Oh sure if they do so poorly that the boss can just fire them and get another from the millions of unemployed the boss does just that. But the fun part of that is that the boss now has to train the new hire and then end up with the same as what he already fired. Products are shit, sold outside of the country of course. Workers steal anything that isnít nailed down, so guards have to check workers on the way out of the compound at the end of a shift.

Fire is not an issue at all. If someone is careless and allows a fire to start, it burns down. Not to worry, it wasnít worth much anyway.

The rich can keep any money they make that they donít pay out in protection and to survive. They pay truckloads of money for a nicer car, because there isnít a market for anything worth a shit and have to import one. But it only makes them a target anyway and they end up having to get another few cars for the guards who have to go with them if they leave the cage they live in. And, they canít get anywhere on the roads anyway.

Manila is just that way. I endured a few months there and that is what I saw. I hung with locals and we talked all the time about everything I saw. I bought food or snacks and they openly answered questions. They let me know about going out of my hotel at night or even during the day. When we were on market streets they made sure I put my wallet in my front pocket and stayed out of the ďbadĒ parts of the bad parts of the bad city.

Barbarian, you would truly be in love with Manila and the Philippines in general. Oh yeah, I knew 2 people who had had family members killed by free market thugs because those family members (one was the guys brother) knew and spoke of corruption from those in a position of power (rich non-tax-paying Joe six gun types).

Paradise Ė lost!



BaRbArIaNPosted: 11/1/2008 8:23:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Short of no income taxes, less taxes are all I''m saying are better, you clowns can run with it if you want, you must be brainwashed into thinking you can tax yourselves into prosperity. Enjoy the next few years.


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/1/2008 8:35:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Oh know, another "they didn''t do it right".

You should run for office with all the "No, I didn''t say that. I said this."


RichardCraniumPosted: 11/1/2008 9:45:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Plus because nothing is regulated, the Phillipines stink like urine 24/7- you left that part out.


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/1/2008 1:05:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Sittin in a place eating lunch. I am looking out the window at the spectical outside. And old lady is standing on the curb and suddenly she just squats ....... raises her dress ...... and begins to pee.

When you sit back and allow a real free market to run it''s course, it becomes such a sad place. Most of humanity gets so used to the abuse of those chosen few that the entire culture just goes to hell in a hand basket.

But - they are free!


SpankyJakePosted: 11/1/2008 3:34:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer


Quote:
Short of no income taxes, less taxes are all I''''m saying are better ...


Bullshit, you're saying that NO services and NO regulatory oversight would be better. Own it.

RichardCraniumPosted: 11/2/2008 1:26:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

BaRb''s mom now has to also wipe my butt when I am done "exiting".

No other job to go to- deregulation ensures my workforce since I am willing to pay a nickel an hour over that of my competitors!

(Approx. $1.02 an hour- but it is sure to drop!)


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/2/2008 4:53:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Barb, admit it or not, you are spouting the same spiel that the neocons have put into place over the past 8 years.

Hereís the question now: The bills, when the truth is told, outweigh the GDP. Why? Well, because the payments to the Military Industrial Complex (war is good for the economy) come from borrowed money. The oil bubble, which came from what used to be illegal processes, made matters worse. The housing bubble, which came from what used to be illegal processes, made matters worse. The banking Ponsi scheme, which came from what used to be illegal processes, brought the entire house of cards down. There are more but it would take pages and pages to list all of them. BTW - the president has no effect on the economy!!! NOT!

It has been the idea of neocons that the middle class would pay for everything, thus eliminating the middle class and make everyone good, cheap, worker class types. Thatís why the middle class paid the ransom/welfare for the economy schemers. Big business got their way in this whole ordeal with the ďNo paying as you go or for what you get, in fact letís not ever pay for anythingĒ and the Bush administration did the same and here we stand.

Fact is Ė the bills exist. Your idea is that you should never have to pay for anything because you can always spout that you have always been against paying. Okay, so has Bush and his cronies, you are not in good company and logic/reality isnít even on the same planet (maybe universe).

So whatís your idea to fix what is broke? Please donít hand out another ďlet the problems fix themselvesĒ bullshit. And please donít say that itís fine with you if your very own home goes the way of the Philippines because that would be a lie.


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/2/2008 11:15:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Okay, forget it if the debt is libertarian ideals in practice or not. Too late to go back and not make it anyway.

Iíd would like to know the libertarian solution to it. Assuming that libertarians arenít just going to say the hell with it, we can ignore anything we want to act like we donít see.

Debt = 11 to 15 trillion $$$ depending on which numbers are crunched and what is left out to make it appear not so bad really if you look at it right.

What to do?



BaRbArIaNPosted: 11/2/2008 4:48:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Even Ron Paul (not a libertarian) has it right, you withdraw most of the military from everywhere its not needed for defense of the country (130 or so nations last count), you privatize most of the land in the country, get out of the foreign aid business and generally make do with less. It will take decades to work ourselves out of the mess the demopublicans have made of the country since WWII alone. Ross Perot had some valid points on this as well.

Do you guys really think you can tax/socialize our way out of this?? Its worked so well for other countries so far right?

TheInfamousTheyPosted: 11/2/2008 6:29:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Quote:
Even Ron Paul (not a libertarian) has it right, you withdraw most of the military from everywhere its not needed for defense of the country (130 or so nations last count), you privatize most of the land in the country, get out of the foreign aid business and generally make do with less. It will take decades to work ourselves out of the mess the demopublicans have made of the country since WWII alone. Ross Perot had some valid points on this as well.

Do you guys really think you can tax/socialize our way out of this?? Its worked so well for other countries so far right?


Socialism has been a dismal failure everywhere it has been tried. It reduces everyone to equal poverty, that is, with the exception of the ruling elite who never seem to get nailed but always promote socialism and ''fairness''.

With apologies to Hogeye''s definition of political-economic terms, Hitler was a socialist as was Stalin. Franco was a fascist and Mussolini was a corporate socialist (socialist corporatism).

The main historic problem with socialism is that it goes contrary to human nature which in turn requires that human nature be altered to fit the socialist scheme. Of course this leads totalitarianism, government control of education by eliminating private education all in the name of ''fairness'', the abolition of inheritance, abolition of any contrary points of view, confiscatory tax schemes designed to redistribute wealth and the eventual abolition of private property. The biggest problem with socialism is that people like to own shit. Socialism also redefinition of ''civil liberties'', mainly in the private property and freedom of speech departments (see totalitarianism).

When the government steals from the rich and gives it to the poor it kills economic growth and replaces free market economics with a marxist scheme of equality in poverty, but only for the great unwashed masses. Of course the ruling elite gets to keep everything for themselves. Ultimately you end up with a two class society: The Ruling Elite and the Slave Class in which ''Work is Freedom''. Remember the phrase Arbeit Macht Frei?

At any rate, fuck with people enough and suck them dry, force them to work because millions on welfare depend upon them, and you end up with a violent revolution in a very short time.

"From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs" is as passe as using trepanning to release evil demons. We need socialism like we need a hole in the head.



RoadrunnerPosted: 11/3/2008 4:30:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Quote:
Even Ron Paul (not a libertarian) has it right, you withdraw most of the military from everywhere its not needed for defense of the country (130 or so nations last count), you privatize most of the land in the country, get out of the foreign aid business and generally make do with less. It will take decades to work ourselves out of the mess the demopublicans have made of the country since WWII alone. Ross Perot had some valid points on this as well.

Do you guys really think you can tax/socialize our way out of this?? Its worked so well for other countries so far right?



Please explain the part about privatizing all of the land. Bush has gone a long way toward giving as much land to his cronies as he could manage and so far I have trouble seeing light between our special implimentation and the old USSR version. If there is difference I need it clarified.

BaRbArIaNPosted: 11/3/2008 7:42:00 AM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

The difference is W cut deals with people that have influence with him to buy up lumber and mining lands without bidding for a cheap price, while RP suggested a mass auction of lands to anyone and everyone with no special treatment for anyone.


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/3/2008 12:38:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

So if I buy a chunk of National Forest and clear cut trees then strip mine minerals itís fine with libertarians? Who, if anybody, pays to deal with my erosion caused by the clear cutting and the poison water from my mining operations. The ecological damage, while massive, I deny totally. Iím truly sorry for the trouble but my bottom line didnít allow for any other way of utilizing my property.

Oh yeah, and for those who live (non-humans), camp or hunt or whatnot in that forest Ė get your own damn forest!

This sounds more and more like USSR. What was that lake that was once one of the largest that they trashed into a pond, careing nothing about the local economy even. Best part was that they drained it for a project that failed due to it being an idiotic plan in the first place.


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/3/2008 12:45:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Aral Sea

Links don''t work for me so - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUyddi_5j8


RichardCraniumPosted: 11/3/2008 1:28:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

Quote:
The difference is W cut deals with people that have influence with him to buy up lumber and mining lands without bidding for a cheap price, while RP suggested a mass auction of lands to anyone and everyone with no special treatment for anyone.


And since only people from the W category can afford to buy the land right now, how exactly would it be different under RP? It''s like McDonalds or Burger King- what difference does it make who''s 99Ę menu is more appealing if all you have is a quarter?


RoadrunnerPosted: 11/3/2008 4:10:00 PM - Reply with Quote ~ Find Messages From this User ~ Refer

I read Barbarianís response and I read RCís response. Then it dawns on me Ė ďJesus H Christ! the libertarians want to just outright sell the United States to these One World Global financiers!!!Ē Have you guys lost your fucking marbles?

What, besides a nice middle of the road referee government, doesnít lead to global communism these days?

I keep saying extremists are bad but they keep reeling in more suckers every day.



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